railandsail

I'm getting myself more confused by trying to nail down the differences in all of these foam-board varieties. Every time I think I have a handle on the subject I run into another discussion that expands on the many varieties that seem to be available.

Last night I ran across an ad on craigslist here in northern FL that spoke of some 1.5 inch 'fiber-faced' foam-board. It got me wondering what was meant by 'fiber-faced'?...what sort of fiber?....on one side or both?...etc.
I had been thinking of utilized the 2" thick stuff that most folks seem to have used, but then again what color?,...what brand? Is there a difference in these foams?
And might it be possible to utilize a 1.5" thick 'faced-foam' that would be as stiff across the spans as the 2" stuff?
(here in FL it is more difficult to source 2' thick foamboard at the local retailers than it is up north)

Then just awhile ago I ran into this site that started talking about different density foams,....(with likely different stiffness characteristics).
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?827041-What-are-you-paying-for-DOW-blue-foam

As I said at the beginning I am getting ever more confused about what I should be looking for, and what I might be able to get here in the south??

The one single thing I do know is that I DO NOT want that white-beaded stuff we use to call styrofoam,...but now that word is attached to many different foams?

Sorry for my frustration with the mingling of these 'names of foams'

Brian

my Blog
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/help-please-design-a-dbldeck-layout-in-its-own-handhouse-shed-12207028

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed

2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider

3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 0
joef

Foam and foam board

You realize that foam sheets and foam board (aka, foamcore) are two different things? Foam sheet is extruded plastic foam, while foamcore board has some kind of facing on it. Traditional foamcore has a paper cardboard face on both sides with foam in the core. Gatorboard has a resin-impregnated wood fiber face, so it's a lot tougher stuff. The fiber-faced foam board of which you speak is most likely gatorboard. Foam sheet comes in many colors and makes. The most common are blue foam and pink foam. Both are essentially the same stuff - blue is made by Dow, and pink is made by Owens Corning. The color is a brand marker, otherwise there is little difference. Then there's the white beaded foam we're all familiar with - and it's actually okay to use for scenery. The "don't use this stuff" fear mongers are overstating their case on white beaded foam. It's plenty okay to use for scenery although you will want to give it a good coating (like plaster or "ground goup") to toughen it up a bit. There is also florist's foam (green and crumbly). I actually prefer florists foam for scenery. It's a lot easier to cut and shape than blue or pink foam. Because foam sheet is primarily intended to be used for insulation (not visible), then the manufacturing tolerances are lax for sheet consistency. It's not uncommon to find a sheet of foam will vary in thickness from one side to the other by up to 1/8". For this reason, I personally don't recommend putting foam under your track. Some will disagree with me, so you will need to decide for yourself. Some have no problems, other report noticeable shrinkage and warping of the foam sheet over time. Your mileage may vary, as they say. Other materials like plywood (which is used in visible construction) are better for track roadbed, since the manufacturing tolerances of a sheet are a lot tighter (circa 1/32" variation in thickness). But foam (green florists foam) has become my preferred method of making scenery and is the primary method I am planning to use for scenery on Siskiyou Line 2.

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

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Reply 0
railandsail

CertiFoam

I found this interesting comparison while searching that discussion I referenced above for more info on highly recommended CertiFoam
http://owensupply.com/Docs/supplies_insulation.htm

Quote:

Thanks for the link for that Certifoam. The web site shows the specs for the foam and you can tell that it is made to the same minimum spec standards as Dow and Owens Corning foam. If you click on the link where it says "ASTM C 578-95 TYPE** it takes you to a page of specifications. Scroll down on that to the chart that shows the specs for different ASTM C 578-95 TYPES. The densities there for the 25psi, 40psi, and 60psi closely match the Dow and Owens Corning foams. Its pretty clear that all of the major manufacturers of extruded foam make their foams to the same specs.

What I like about that Certifoam is that it looks like the sheets are real flat and true, at least from the pictures. Can you confirm or deny whether the foam boards really are as nice as they look in the pictures? When I say nice, I mean are the sheets of a uniform thickness or are the edges rounded over and mashed like most foam boards? Are the sheets flat or are they cupped across the width of the sheet? Does the foam tend to warp and bow after you cut an aifoil from it?

Are you able to weigh one of the sheets that you have? It would be nice to see if they are close to the stated density or not. What size sheet did you get for $30.00?

The sheets are very flat and uniform. The sheets are NOT cupped across the width or length of the sheet. The edges, where I get it, are very square. The stuff DOES warp and bow after you cut an airfoil from it. I've never had a problem with it when bagging though. I just have to put a little weight on the tip and root. I like how it cuts.

The thickness is pretty uniform but can very up to 1/16".

I'll try to weight it. I get a 4'x8' for $33.00

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"green florists foam"     Hi

Quote:

"green florists foam"

Hi Joe,   I've never tried the green foam. What size sheets does it come in and what kind of place sells it? ....DaveB

Reply 0
Dave K skiloff

Florists foam

You can buy florists foam in various sizes and thicknesses at Michael's and other craft type stores.  You want to be sure you get stuff that is 'stiff' for lack of a better word.  You can buy some at Dollar stores (and likely other places) that can work, but I found it too soft, so if you put your hand on it, it would leave an impression you couldn't get out.  

Dave
Playing around in HO and N scale since 1976

Reply 0
railandsail

Hi Joe, Were you familiar

Hi Joe,

Were you familiar with the variety of densities of these foam board/sheets as expressed in that link I provided to a model aircraft site discussion of foam sheets?

 

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"You can buy florists foam in

Quote:

"You can buy florists foam in various sizes and thicknesses at Michael's and other craft type stores. " 

   I only use foam for scenery( all my track sits on wood and cork) does this floral foam cut with a hot wire any easier than the cheap white foam from Home Depot? ....DaveB

Reply 0
railandsail

Hi Joe,Did you notice what

Hi Joe,
Did you notice what they said about the green foam at this link...
http://owensupply.com/Docs/supplies_insulation.htm

I don't think the stuff I saw the ad for is Gator board, as when I phoned them they said it had a orange/yellow foam core and skins that were somewhat fiberglass-like. Gator board is quoted black or white.

They quoted some 8.6R thermal property, but they said they could NOT find any other ID marks that might tell who made it? The yellow color, combined with the 8.6R for 1.5 thick material made me think it might be Certifoam. I've written Certifoam asking some questions.

My impressions of a lot of this foam material is that it has LESS problems with swelling and warping than MANY of today's plywoods. That interest me in hot, humid FL, particularly as my layout will be in an 'outdoor shed' and not under CONSTANT air conditioning. Granted at least I have carport cover over the shed's roof.

Brian
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/help-please-design-a-dbldeck-layout-in-its-own-handhouse-shed-12207028

Reply 0
joef

Florist foam

You can get florist foam at Michaels and online at places like Amazon ...

Floracraft Styrofoam Block, 18 by 12 by 2-Inch, Green, 1-Pack, $8.97 Prime by FloraCraft 
Link:  http://a.co/09XJqN0

 

 

 

It comes in either small sheets or as "bricks" that are about 2"x4"x8".

The stuff is very easy to cut, a razor saw works great - it's soft enough you won't need to use a hot cutter.

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

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Reply 0
joef

Foam sheet dimensional stability

We've been through this discussion previously, but in short, see:

https://foursevenfive.com/foam-fails-reason-5-excessive-shrinkage

And Dupont's report available here in PDF form.

From the Dupont report:

Quote:

“XPS and polyisocyanurate [foam sheeting] have commonly been utilized as a moisture barrier, but recent building science research has shown that these products may not be as dimensionally stable as initially thought. There is some evidence that the insulation boards shrink enough (up to 5/8”) that simply taping the joints may not be sufficient to maintain the drainage plane long term.”

Energy Efficient and Green Technology Building Template Guide for the State of Maryland, prepared for Maryland Energy Administration – Energy Efficiency Programs by Steven Winter Associates, January 10, 2007

In short, foam sheeting may not hold up well in temperature extremes. The stuff is actually less dimensionally stable than things like plywood or masonite when it comes to thermal changes. It generally fares better in humidity changes, than wood products, however.

If you have a climate-controlled environment where the temperature won't vary more than 10 degrees and the humidity won't vary more than 40%, then you may be fine with foam under your track. Many report no problem, but that's likely because the layout is in an air conditioned space that's tightly climate controlled.

If you think about what foam sheeting is - it's mostly air trapped inside small plastic bubbles. If those bubble crack for any reason because of hot / cold changes, then the air escapes and the plastic bubbles collapse ... causing siginificant dimensional changes. Wood products are a carbon fibrous structure that is mostly affected by humidity changes and less so by thermal changes. Wood products are not mostly air, while foam is.

My conclusion is I don't recommend foam under your trackwork, if you want to be on the safe side. Some have been fine, so it might work okay - then again it might not - the stuff seems to be somewhat unpredictable when it comes to shrinkage from outgassing.

But if you have an environment with temperature extremes, I definitely would not put foam under my track.

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

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Reply 0
Metrolink

Foam:

Southern California home centers don't typically stock blue or pink stuff (XPS, or extruded polystyrene), except in small, 2' x 2' sheets. I just drove to my local Home Depot to find out that they no longer carry my foam of choice: polyisocyanurate ( Rmax Thermasheath 3). The vendor took all the inventory from the store last month! Luckily, it was only that store—another store a few miles away had 76 sheets of 2" x 4' x 8' polyiso in stock. When I first started, I considered a lot of different foams:

• XPS (extruded polystyrene): Pink or blue stuff. Won't take spray-paint. Generally not available in Southern California.
• EPS (expanded polystyrene): White beaded-foam they make coolers out of. Messy and not too strong.
• polyisocyanurate ("polyiso"): Cuts easier than XPS; chemically resistant (takes spray-paint); foil-backing on both sides.
• Florists' foam: Neat stuff; very malleable, but expensive. Easily crushed. Contains Formaldehyde.
• Foamcore: Paper-backed sheets of extruded-polystyrene foam. Light and easy to cut, but may warp.
• Sintra®: Expanded polyvinyl chloride (PVC) sheet. Rigid yet flexible. Comes in a variety of colors. Excellent for facias.
• Gatorboard: Extruded-polystyrene core with 1/32" wood-fiber veneer on both sides. Very strong, rigid, but expensive!

annerF-6.jpg 

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"The stuff is very easy to

Quote:

"The stuff is very easy to cut, a razor saw works great - it's soft enough you won't need to use a hot cutter."

   Hi Joe,  I use the hot wire to cut wide tapered pieces to glue over the plywood base to create slight ground slopes without sanding. Using the hot wire also greatly reduces the amount of foam sawdust to deal with. A guy who built foam aircraft wings showed me this technique( cutting large thin foam pieces) many years ago....DaveB

Reply 0
Bwillia4

Use Gator for structural and insulation foams for contours

Hello there,

I am an industrial engineer and have been experimenting with foams for many years to use as either plywood or plaster replacement. I don't use those materials any longer to construct my layouts. I think it would help our hobby  immensely to migrate away from the old fashioned heavy wood construction which has been around for many decades. Similar to the construction used in a house, old school methods use plywood, dimensional lumber and plaster.

Unless you plan to stand on your model railroad, the heft and weight of the construction is completely unnecessary and just makes the model too heavy, inflexible and difficult to move or modify--- Its really way "overbuilt".

Why not have a more appropriately engineered, lightweight model structure using available contemporary materials?

To be practical, portable show model railroads have sometimes used these more modern construction methods- for instance the N Scale Clinchfield, which utilized an aluminum frame. Today many of us live in apartments, and at some point will have to move our model railroad.

In 2017, there is no reason model railroaders shouldn't be using faced, flat foam boards, cast and carved foams, along with steel and aluminum metal reinforcement to create benchwork for their model landscapes. I am talking about hard Gatorboard here not common "foamcore" which is too soft and weak.

The only downside is the slightly higher costs, and perhaps learning a few new skills. I would argue that the benchwork deserves more attention than most people pay to it,  and why not support your beautiful models with a quality foundation?

For model railroad subroadbed and benchwork, There are three roles to fill:
1) Stiff and strong structural panels for benchwork construction
2) Soft, easy to contour "filler" foam to create scenery shapes
3) Smooth dense "facing" foam which will hold very fine details- rocks, retaining walls, roads, even bridges, this includes Bragdon enterprises resin rocks - Geodesic foam

Used together in glued layers, these make for a very rigid, strong yet lightweight structure for today's model railroads.

There are many types of foam beyond what most modelers are already familiar with - foamcore and pink or blue insulation foam.

There are literally dozens of high quality foam boards both faced and unfaced. For instance, Fine textured closed cell foam - often sold as an insulator has also become a staple of artists and designers and model railroaders.

It comes in a variety of textures, hardness and prices. Professional industrial foam can be expensive. And even the hobby Balsa Foam is not cheap.

Foam is rated in pounds which is the crush resistance - higher the number the denser and harder to carve. The expensive foam is finer grained for better detail, and doesnt "shed" as much.

For the past 15 years I have been building layout benchwork with rigid faced foam materials. I "discovered" gatorboard when doing a backdrop and observed its high strength properties first hand. For scenery, I have also worked with German made "Modur" rigid foam and some balsa foam PLUS the casting kit sold by Bragdon Enterprises for thin cast resin panels and rock faces. Filler and contouring material can be simple white foam or the popular pink or blue insulation foam which is in wide use. My current model railroad contains no wood or plaster.

FYI Here is a list of some of todays available foam materials: The average modeler is not familiar with some of these versions. For modeling, my favorite is Gatorfoam or gatorboard. (Same thing)

Polystyrene (in softer, 5psi pound versions) - "Styrofoam" Dow Chemical - is the soft disposable foam used in cups and packing material and is too soft for permanent use.

XPS - Rigid Foam Insulation - , Extruded polystyrene sheet - Dow Chemical is Blue, Owens Corning is pink and includes different densities Foamular 400, 600, and 1000 is Owens Corning's 40, 60, and 100psi foam. It is the same —measurably identical— as Dow's Highload 40, 60, and 100 There are also others Pactiv Greengard (light green) and RMax Thermalsheet in light gray.

Gatorboard - Laminated Polystyrene & Luxcell - Gatorfoam® foam board is an extruded polystyrene foam board bonded between two layers of Luxcell wood-fiber veneer. It is very stiff, rigid and heavy duty, yet a versatile foam board which is perfect for many model railroad structural uses. It comes in thicknesses from 3/16 to 2 inches thick! Most modelers have never seen Gatorfoam. It is used in sign shops, and is only sold retail at a few art suppliers. 

Ultraboard - Laminated Polystyrene & Styrene Face - UltraBoard is a premium sign material which has styrene facing instead of Luxcell, however, due to the flexible nature of styrene, it is not as rigid as gatorboard.

Foamcore - the common "Paper-faced Foam Board" you see everywhere. It consists of three layers – an inner layer of polystyrene foam clad with front and back outer facing of either a white claycoated paper or brown kraft paper. It is Vulnerable to moisture - Warps and very substandard inexpensive foam board compared to other boards. Craft people find ways to use it and like it, but doesn't have permanency of other products. Ideal uses - temporary structures, mockups, templates etc

Structural / Core Foam - all sorts of high end honeycomb, carbon fiber aerospace etc - the aerospace industry has a whole catalog of industrial grade, very expensive foam panels for a variety of applications for aircraft and spacecraft.

RF & Microwave Shielding Foams - black, coarse foam used for various rf shielding uses. Not generally suitable for modeling applications.

Falcon Board - 100% recycled printable paper product with a paper honeycomb core and smooth white exterior - rigid and cheap - good candidate for backdrop support 1/2" and 3/16" thicknesses.

Rigid Urethane Sign Foam - 3D signs graphics and displays - similar to below - designed for CNC machining - aka "High Density Urethane" - The tighter cell structure of the new Precision Board Plus High Density Urethane foam board has produced improved machining characteristics, Higher machine feed rates are easily achieved compared to wood, epoxy and alloy substrates. 

Sintra - PVC faced, hard foam core - which is heatable and bendable Sintra is a lightweight rigid board of moderately expanded closed-cell PVC, manufactured by 3A Composites USA Inc. available up to 19mm (.750) Has some interesting applications in model building.

Phenolic foam is a lightweight, high performance, thermal insulating foam that possesses excellent mechanical strengths. 

Polyethylene Foam (PE) is a strong resilient closed cell foam. Used for shock absorbing, vibration dampening, loose fill, and cushioning.

Reinforced Polyurethane Foam - 3M Reinforced Polyurethane Foam, a lightweight and rot-resistant alternative to plywood for use in structural and semi-structural applications. These polyurethane foam boards with fiberglass reinforcement provide high strength in applications including marine, transportation and general construction, with a weight savings ranging from 30 to 60 percent versus plywood. If you need something really tough, this is the way to go.

PolyISO FOAM CORE - Polyisocyanurate - Trymer® - Polyisocyanurate foam is a rigid foam that has the highest insulating values of any conventional foam insulation commercially available today and often has a glued surface facing for convenient application.

I use strips of aluminum to reinforce longer pieces, and my modules/sections are super strong, resistant to warping or moisture and super light weight - less than 10 lbs! Great for train shows or when you have to move.

There are a handful of modelers who use these materials, but I think its only a matter of time before they get discovered by a wider group of progressive, forward thinking model builders.

Brian Williams, N scaler, modeling the SP in the transition era.

Reply 0
railandsail

Good Summation

Just ran across this very short discussion thread, with a excellent summation of foamboard varieties.

Thought it needed to be brought back to the forefront.

These days I would put even more emphasis on the products 'expanded PVC',....

..such as this, ' Sintra is a lightweight rigid board of moderately expanded closed-cell PVC '.

I've had some recent experiences working with this material in a mock-up of my viaduct.

 

 

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

I don't know how much it

I don't know how much it would apply to model railroading but RC modelers can tell you all about different types of foam and there's some real artistry going on in that hobby with it. It ranges from very simple planes for bashing around in the backyard to some really exquisite planes that are almost scale reproductions.

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

I call what I do "An artistic impression of reality" and you can see my layout journal here...

The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
trebor48

Tapered Edge Polyisocyanurate (TEP)

I just ran across this and have not tried it yet, but it seemed pertinent.

Excerpt from  https://modelrailwaylayoutsplans.com/brians-coffee-table-layout/?inf_contact_key=11e1955be1bfd8b1cdf6fae34d8bbb80680f8914173f9191b1c0223e68310bb1

"As long as we are on insulation, try to use polyisocyanurate for scenery instead of polystyrene. Roofers use this in fire rated assemblies whereas the polystyrene (extruded or bead-board) is highly combustible. Besides sheets of constant thickness, it also is available tapered in 1/8″ per foot, 1/4″ per foot, 3/8″ per foot and 1/2 ” per foot increments making grades easy to attain. (divide the denominator into the numerator to obtain % of grade)."

e.g.  https://roof.atlasrwi.com/products/tapered-polyiso-roof-insulation/

Just a thought.

Bob T

Reply 0
AlexW

Foam

I attempted to make a layout out of foam (now it's the Foam Central, my version of the famed Plywood Central), and I'm not using the stuff again without a plywood frame and sandwich around and under if I ever use it again for anything with mainline track on top of it. The problem I had was using it for the edge of layout sections, where it seems to sort of fall apart when cutting it, and I ended up with a bunch of big gaps in the surface of the FC. Now, something seems to have either bent or settled, although I think the likely culprit is using 1x material for the frames.

In the future, I think I'm going to try and use mostly birch plywood. I was turned off by plywood having only had experience with 3/4" birch that costs a fortune and weighs a ton and is hard to work with, but birch is super stable in 1/2", 3/8" and even 1/4" thicknesses. Free-Mo modules seem to be making their frames and structure primarily out of plywood, due to it's stability. The modular club I was in uses 1x material, and the module frames bend and rack over time so that the track isn't super smooth. I also made the mistake of using 1/2" MDF for my first module. It's solid and stable as anything, but it also weighs a ton. The club has a method to build a module with a foam top and a 1x frame, but based on what I've read about Free-Mo, I think my next one will be built using plywood instead.

EDIT: I also made a half-finished module out of Gatorboard. That stuff in incredible. It weighs almost nothing and it's super stable, but it's also pricey and has some of the same limitations with scenery that building on plywood does.

Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern

Reply 0
railandsail

hopefully additional info coming on cellular PVC

I just recent set a private message to the gentleman who provided this nice 'summation' of foamboard varieties asking if he could add in the 'cellular PVC' board products. Waiting to hear from him, or hopefully he will make a new posting on this subject thread.

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/foamboard-varieties-12207043

 

 

Reply 0
railandsail

Cellular PVC

Tips for working with PVC
https://www.familyhandyman.com/carpentry/trim-carpentry/tips-for-working-with-pvc-trim/


https://www.vi-lux.com/resources/advantages-of-cellular-pvc-products/

Quote:

Advantages of Cellular PVC Products, Low Maintenance Alternative to Wood

Polyvinyl chloride has long been recognized as one of the most durable and installer-friendly building materials on the market, and cellular PVC trim is no exception. PVC trim is not a new idea. In fact, PVC profiles were available as early as 1970, though recent developments in manufacturing techniques and processing aids have made cellular PVC trim an increasingly popular choice of homeowners and building professionals.

Homeowners love PVC trim because it is virtually maintenance free and it complements all exterior cladding materials, including vinyl, wood, stucco, fiber cement, and brick. Installers prefer it because cellular PVC trim is lightweight and durable and it can be installed using ordinary woodworking tools. Architects and builders specify PVC trim because it can be milled and routed, and heat formed into curved shapes for architectural windows and custom designs.

Vi-Lux’s cellular PVC products have advantages over solid rigid vinyl and is an excellent substitute for wood products in many applications. Cellular PVC is less dense than solid rigid PVC and as a result is more economical. As wood prices escalate, cellular PVC is a cost effective and ecologically sound substitute to wood. Foamed PVC products handle in the same way as wood. In addition, cellular PVC is a maintenance free, rot resistance alternative requiring no priming or painting. When compared to pine, cellular PVC products outperform pine in impact strength, water absorption and resistance to burning.

Reply 0
dantept

Foam Plastics

Brian,

Thanks for such a complete and clear review of available foams. However, please don't call the first on your list, soft polystyrene, "Styrofoam." Styrofoam is XPS (extruded) and a much tougher foam; also, the trade name for Dow's product.

Dante

Reply 0
Ken Rice

Styrofoam

That ship has sailed Dante - as wikipedia says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrofoam: “In the  United States and  Canada, the colloquial use of the word styrofoam refers to another material that is usually white in color and made of expanded (not extruded)  polystyrene foam ( EPS).

Hence styrofoam cups, styrofoam packaging, etc. - it’s common usage.

Reply 0
ctxmf74

styrofoam

Some of the first foam surfboards I made back in the early 1960's were a blue Styrofoam , it came in thick rectangular blanks , we bought it from our high school shop class materials. It also would dissolve in resin so needed a protective coat before glassing....DaveB

Reply 0
jimfitch

If foam is too much a

If foam is too much a conundrum, why not go old school and use cardboard strips and hot glue?  Cheap and cheerful and you can make fairly specific landforms too.  Foam or cardboard, it's still going to have to be covered with something, like plaster cloth or other filler cover.

D&RGW focus late 70's thru early 80's west of Grande Junction CO.

Jim Fitch
northern VA

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